capsized in libya. over 200 girls missing a year later in nigeria from boko haram. almost 150 people killed in kenya. all lives matter. africa should not be marginalized. where is the outcry? where is the media? thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. obama drama. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. the debate is on. democrats for expanding u.s. trade with the world and perhaps creating new jobs, or are they out to protect existing u.s. jobs? last night we broadcast president obama's challenge to the man soon to be the senate's top democrat. new york's charles schumer. why are some people like chuck schumer, who is probably going

to be leader of the senate why is he switching from a big city financial center pro trader to being an anti-trader? is that because of upstate new york? what is going on? i can't figure this out. >> joining to talk to chuck. >> the senator also said elizabeth warren is wrong in her opposition. rachel maddow has her on at 9:00 eastern. but let's get to senator schumer. senator schumer, thanks for coming on tonight. we had the president on yesterday, as you know. he said he wanted me to go to you. i can't explain chuck schumer's position on this. ask him. and i was saying that you have always represented a financial center of new york, which is generally pro trade. but you also have to worry about upstate new york which is an old industrial area. what it is in your constituency that you're particularly concerned about with regard to the pacific trade deal? >> well, it goes way beyond my constituent circumstances chris. as you know, i have said this on your show. the greatest problem america faces is the decline of middle class incomes. and to me, trade agreements while they may increase

corporate profits and they may even increase gdp, we help middle class incomes to decline. and it's obvious why. the studies have shown it. it's obvious why, because of these trade agreements are labor moves. companies move labor to the lowest cost markets. i used to support these agreements. in the congress i lost the afl-cio endorsement a few years because i supported them. but when middle class incomes are declining, these agreements don't work well for america. now, one other point i'd make here, chris. the number one thing i feel is that china is the most rapacious trading partner we have. they manipulate their currency, number one. number two, they steal our intellectual property. and worst of all that. >> don't let our companies in when they do good things. they have already accomplished that in low labor industries. you know furniture, toys, clothes. but now they're doing it in high end. and if you talk privately to our tech companies, our

pharmaceutical companies, our high-end manufacturing companies, the high end of america where the good paying jobs are, china is not letting them in unless china gets to steal their intellectual property in a company that the 51% owned by the chinese. so what i told the administration, if they would even -- i wouldn't even entertain supporting this agreement unless the we had a currency bill that went after china. and that is consistent with their view that you need tpp to bring these nations away from china. so far they have said no. and i feel very strongly that we need to change the way we do trade because it has been one of the major factors that lead to decline of middle class incomes. i know you have said we created 30 million jobs since nafta. at the since nafta, middle class incomes have declined. >> he argues -- >> you're trading high-end manufacturing and service jobs for hamburger flippers. it's more jobs, less money. >> the export market is based

the president argued on high-paying jobs. i've seen statistics that people make over 88 a year generally benefit because these are export jobs. i don't agree with that? >> i basically believe that until they stop stealing our intellectual property, and until they stop keeping our companies out that do good things the amount we will gain from export jobs is minimized, and the amount we lose in middle class incomes is maximized. the currency bill we have would finally do something for china's rapacious policies. and so far the administration they've talked to me but they refuse to do it. and everyone, you know you talk to corporate ceos, chris, the people who are for these bills. they say on china chuck you keep doing what you're doing. we can't say anything because china retaliates against us. but you keep it up. >> what about a deal? can there be a provision in this before it's finished? it does have something that stops these companies from deflating their currency and playing these manipulation

games. >> yes. >> how do you do it? >> that's what i proposed to the administration. >> without affecting our own fed and our own ability our own money. does it interfere with our abilities? >> chris, our proposal, which is bipartisan does not affect qe2 or anything we do for monetary policy. it simply affects currency that is being manipulated for trade. >> are you still in this deal? in other words, if they do the right thing by you, could you still be supportive of this by the time it goes to a vote up or down? >> look, i am deeply skeptical of trade deals in general for the reasons i've outlined. but the only way they can get a number of democrats is by doing a strong real currency bill that goes after the worst of the trading partners the one that is stealing our high-end jobs. >> right. >> our high-end industry china. so far this administration, the bush administration have done nothing. and as china has manipulated its currency, we have lost trillions of dollars of wealth and millions of good paying jobs. >> let me ask you about the politics. last question, senator. thanks for cosming on tonight especially tonight.

what about the clintons? bill clinton is for this. he was for nafta. i heard him over in tokyo when i was over there for the st. patrick's day it was. he came out and said it with australia great bill. secretary clinton was for it. she called it the gold standard when she was secretary of state. isn't this a big political fight for the democrats? >> well, look i think the clintons are going to make their decision based on the merits. and their focus, like mine on middle class jobs. and so we'll see where they come out. we're in a different world than 1994. the china we dealt with in 1994 is a lot different than the china today. you talk to -- >> bill clinton is for it now. >> you talk to our best companies, our googles our apples, our microsofts. that will say nothing. but when you talk to some of these companies -- i'm not saying these three. but our best companies will tell you china steals their property and keeps them out. and then manufactures it -- they manufacture it themselves, and then they send it here using currency manipulation to get an artificially low price.

>> last word from the president repeating what he said last night, if we get out of this business of trade expansion, we turn it over to the chinese. we could go to war with china nor effectively. your thoughts? >> chris, if we don't do currency, we're turning over our economy to the chinese. the way we have turned over the low-end stuff, we will turn over the high-end stuff. and i feel a passion about this. it's not political for me. it's substantive. i truly believe that america's greatness and billions and billions of dollars of our wealth flows away because china doesn't treat us fairly. and we can do something about it. and that is the best time to do something. that's why i'm pushing my currency bill as part of this program. >> thank you so much, senator chuck schumer of new york. thanks for coming on senator. >> thanks. bye-bye. on our interview president obama attacked critics in his party who opposing trade expansion. he called them out, including senator elizabeth warren. >> i love elizabeth. we're allies on a whole host of issues. but she is wrong on this. look, chris think about it. i've spent the last six and a

half years yanking this economy out of the worst recession since the great depression. every single thing i've done from the affordable care act to pushing to raise the minimum wage to making sure the young people are able to go to college and get good job training to what we're pushing now in terms of sick pay leave everything i do has been focused on how do we make sure the middle class is getting a fair deal. now, i would not be doing this trade deal if i did not think it was good for the middle class. and when you hear folks make a lot of suggestions about how bad this trade deal is when you dig into the facts they are wrong. >> and today senator warren responded to president obama in a post on her campaign website. she writes quote the administration says i'm wrong, that there's nothing to worry about. they say the deal is nearly done, and they are making a lot of promises about how the deal will affect workers, the environment, and human rights

promises. but people like you can't see the actual deal. well, senator warren will be on "the rachel maddow show" tonight at 9:00 eastern. i'm joined by usa washington bureau chief susan page and perry bacon. perry, i don't understand this one charge. this thing gets pretty complicated, and there are both sides to the argument. they keep saying how secret it is. any u.s. senator, any time they want, they can go look at the exact language of the trade deal as it's being negotiated right now there is going to be 60 days for public review of it there is going to be 90 days all together on notification. this thing could last 180 days lots of exposure. why are they pushing this argument that it's being done in secret, and is it honest? is it an honest argument? >> i'm confused by it too, chris. i don't get that. stronger is the one senator schumer made. the argument basically that china manipulates its currency, one, and two, that since nafta, there has been a greater growth in income inequality, middle class wages have been stagnant. those i think are hard arguments

to argue against. and those are going to be the arguments going forwards, i think. those are really strong cases. i think a lot of democrats are going to have a hard time supporting a trade agreement that senator schumer and senator warren both oppose this strongly. >> why is china keep factoring into the pacific rim issue? they're not even in on this deal are, they? >> they're not. >> why are we talking about it? this deal is against them. this brings us into a better trading partnership with people who would like to trade with china or us? does this help us compete? i don't get the continue you'll focus on currency manipulation. jack lew, the secretary of the treasury who i respect a lot says you put that in, it's a poison pill. there will be no deal. >> i think senator schumer and a lot of republicans and democrats have been considering the chinese for a long time. even though this issue is not directly related, they know this is a great vehicle to really take it foreign the first time and push the president on the issue. so i think they are trying to add on an issue that may be unnecessary to this deal. but this is the right time

politically 20 do that. and that's the tactic here. >> pure politics with you, susan, front page with susan page. let me ask you this. hillary clinton, she has been careful like her husband bill clinton was in 1992. he finessed it. she seems to be fin negotiation it. this getting more difficult. bill clinton has come out with this. i heard him in tokyo a month ago, he was for this thing. she has come out for it as secretary of state. she said it was gold -- the gold standard. how can she pull away with the finesse for a time and then come out when it mattered? your thoughts. >> i think it's very difficult for hillary clinton to come out against this deal because of her work on it when she was secretary of state and because of what she said when she was secretary of state. she doesn't need to be the leading democrat advocate for the bill. and that's where i think the finesse may come in that she expresses some concerns, that she acknowledges some of the points that elizabeth warren and others are making. but i think it would be really

difficult. it would be a clear flip-flop if hillary clinton said this is a deal that shouldn't go through. >> let me be tough here? shouldn't leaders lead? i know that's optimistic and idealistic. but shouldn't leaders come out and say you know what? i'm hearing a lot of blasting on this deal. stop attacking it as if it's evil. this is a mixed bag there is always going to be pluses and minuses. you know, this perry. you're on this. some jobs will be created. the high-tech careers will do better. the high paying jobs will do better. some of the older industries will continue to suffer. but talk about it this way instead of this is awful. this is whoop ass this crazy language that we're using. your thoughts. >> i would argue senator warren and senator schumer and president obama are leading. they're articulating their positions. those are fine. i think you're right that senator clinton could lead more could give up more on this issue. but this is an american political campaign. we're used to. this politicians kind of being vague, not saying what they think. i do think down the line she has to be for it or against it.

i think susan is right for two reasons. first she was so involved -- >> susan said she can't oppose it. susan was clear on this. it wasn't either way with susan. susan is not like other politicians. she is a journalist. and she said it's very hard for her to oppose it given her history. >> and she'll end up supporting it, i suspect. also because if she deposed it we would have headlines saying this is a stunning rebuke of the obama administration. i think she probably wants to avoid at this stage. but this is a tough issue for her. a lot of the people in the democratic party are looking at her sand and saying why are you not more like elizabeth warren? if she comes out for this trade deal there will be even more complaints that she is too centrist. >> by the way, back to susan. if she is against it, we'll have mary matalin going against james carville. bill clinton is for this. he has always been a free trader. and here he is on this one. isn't that embarrass tock fighting inside the family on this very hot issue? >> yeah. and you know, there is another things. it's one thing for hillary clinton to adopt some anti-wall

street language to try to appeal to progressives. it would be another thing entirely for her to come against this deal in terms of the base of her support which is in wall street, which is with big corporations. they'll grant her a little room when it comes to rhetoric. but this would actually be a serious policy matter. and that's where i think it's hard for me to imagine that she does not support it. although perhaps not in a really full-throated way. >> very disserng. thank you, susan page. that's the way i think it has to be cut. perry bacon, thank you sir, both. coming up, can rand paul win in the war party? he is going after the warhawks, people like john mccain and lindsey graham. he is making a big bet that everyday republican voters are as sick and tired of war as everyday democrats. plus, that trade fight we've been talking about is putting the squeeze on hillary clinton. she is caught between big labor and big bill. he is a free trader. and so is the president. she served as secretary of

state. and today is earth day. tonight the former republican congressman who took on the climate change deniers in his party. finally, let me finish with that very hot trade issue. this is "hardball," the place for politics. w the world's number one natural gas producer... and we could soon become number one in oil. because hydraulic fracturing technology is safely recovering lots more oil and natural gas. supporting millions of new jobs. billions in tax revenue... and a new century of american energy security. the new energy superpower? it's red, white and blue. log on to learn more.

the penalty phase continues for the convicted boston marathon bomber. prosecutors are trying to portray dzhokhar tsarnaev as having no remorse. and they showed the jury this photo-him giving this sign of contempt to a security camera in his jail cell three months after the bombing. today the defense tried to blunt the impact of that photo by releasing video of that event. the jury is deciding whether tsarnaev gets life in prison without parole or the death penalty. but during jury selection, every juror has signaled their willingness to support the death penalty. a new suffolk university poll of voters out today found 58% thought he should get life in prison without parole while 33% favored giving him the death

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my goal is not to resolve conflicts and tensions in the region through more war. my goal is to make sure that we are able to negotiate a deal that we can verify. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was of course more from my michigan interview with president obama yesterday, who talked about the need to avoid war by partnering with other countries to resolve tensions and conflicts. republican presidential contend errand paul has ecke toed the need avoid unnecessary entanglements abroad. but as the race heats up paul is getting hammered by hawks in his party who always seem to want war, like lindsey graham yesterday on "morning joe." >> rand is a libertarian. he has a view of the world that i don't share. he said we shouldn't have any troops in iraq. he agreed with obama that was a disaster. when there was a chance to do something constructive about syria with the no-fly zone, he said we don't need one. generally speaking, he has been more wrong than right.

he is has an isolationist view of the world that i don't share. >> and senator paul hit back shortly thereafter. >> this comes from a group of people who have been wrong about every foreign policy issue over the last two decades. they supported hillary clinton's war in libya. they supported president obama's bombing of assad. i'm really the one standing up to president obama. and these people are essentially the lap dogs for president obama. and i think they're sensitive about that. their foreign policy is so disjointed confusing, and chaotic that really, people need to reexamine those who want to be involved in every war. >> as the war continues among the galena park's 2016 contenders, is there a disconnect between republican hawks in washington and everyday republicans throughout who vote? howard finerman editorial director of "the huffington post." and ron fornier editorial director of the national journal. i was struck, guys, as i've said to howard before, ron, i was struck by that poll that came

out in quinnipiac and pennsylvania that basically showed rand paul beating hillary clinton. hillary clinton does very well in pennsylvania generally. i think she connects with the working white people and all kinds of people that would normally have a problem with the modern democratic party. but i'm impressed that deer hunter country have had wit these stupid wars that they don't go along with the neo con theology, they don't go along with the big money people or the evangelicals who always seem to want to fight, especially in the middle east. i don't think they connect with the hawkishness of people like lindsey graham. and even they they respect john mccain him included. your thoughts. >> i'll tell you about another poll. the cbs did a poll in march. it shows about 45% of republicans think we need to take military action now against iran. but 41%, which is statistically almost a tie of republicans think containment is what we should do, that we can contain iran. so the republican party is divided amongst itself. and i think you're right. i think in places like pennsylvania, there is folks who want our next president to talk

like a hawk, but fly like a dove. be tough, hold a tough line, but don't be running off into another war. especially since even if you support our troops and you want to have a robust foreign policy you recognize that we have -- we've been overdeploying our men and women and we've been spilling our blood and treasure and we need to be more careful. >> and we have a volunteer army, howard, just to continue this discussion. that means the guys and women who signed up to serve their country get sent back again and again and again into the breach the same people. >> exactly. that's true. and it's a tremendous burden that is hidden for most of the american people and in most of the coverage nationally. but is very well-known at the grassroots level and places where people join the volunteer army you. mention deer hunter country in central pennsylvania. that's part of it. and i think also people in states like pennsylvania know that a lot of money and effort and time needs to be spent on knitting america back together,

on the bridges and the roads and the infrastructure and the education. >> yes. >> they want the focus, people in a state like pennsylvania, especially in the middle of the state, as you say, want the focus on repairing the state. pennsylvania is a mess in terms of infrastructure. they don't want to blow up bridges over there. they want to build them here. >> every time i see we have a construction project somewhere over there i go wait a minute we could use that baby. anyway, "morning joe" this morning joe scarborough had this to say on the very topic about the republican party and war. >> i do still think there is a big disconnect between republicans in washington, d.c. and republicans everywhere i go. when you start talking about you know foreign entanglements, they just don't want any part of it. >> ron, let's talk about the shape of the field. politics is shaping and determining the winner. if you have a whole bunch of hawks from huckabee all the way across the christie, that covers the spectrum over on every other

issue, all hawks, all hawks. and one guy out there saying not me. jimmy carter won that way back in '76. i know it's a thousand years ago. but he did win by being the only moderate to conservative candidate among about seven or eight liberals. can rand paul win against a crowd of people that disagree with him? >> he could possibly. just look at this one poll. if you have 45% of republicans who want war now, well, that vote can be divided up between eight or nine candidates. >> right. >> if you have 41%, almost as many, like most of america want to do everything we can to try to contain iran, who basically -- might not agree with what the president is doing exactly, but agree with the idea we need to try to contain this country, that all goes to rand paul in a republican nomination, conceivably, if this was the only issue on the table. so i think what he is doing is interesting. and it could pay off for him. >> here is the shot howard scored against him. they don't want to be the only man who disagrees with him. they want to hit him hard. lindsey graham said he is closer

to president obama and hillary clinton than he is to rand paul on foreign policy. >> i'm closer to anybody who believes that we should lead not from behind but from the front. rand paul is one step behind, leading from behind. so, yes, even obama is more aggressive. obama believes you can kill anwar al awlaki without getting a court order. can holden my combatants with gitmo without a trial because this is war of detention. rand paul is behind obama, not just hillary clinton. >> howard what is with this macho that we get from lindsey graham? i'm sorry. it's just over the top. it's protesting too much. i mean, put everybody in gitmo, blah blah blah. the lone ranger. is there any limit to the overkill here from the hawkish southern right, but not only southern right because as i said chris christie is out there with him. >> no there is no limit. and if they're not careful, not

only are the numbers against them as ron was explaining but the sentiment could go against them if rand paul is able to take advantage of two other things, chris. one of them is a desire for change of the system in the country. a sort of let's disrupt things. let's turn things upside down. we have had too much of the clintons, too much of the establishment, too much of the bushes. we've had too much of the old names and the old theories. it's time for a new theory. so that can be on his side. and if he is able to capture also a generational change. >> yes. >> i mean, if it's him against john mccain, even if it's not about the specifics of how many ships you send to the persian gulf, he can say look john, we honor you for the past, but you're in the past. it's time to think anew and act anew. you remember that phrase, chris. >> right. >> and that -- if rand paul is going to go anywhere he is going to have to expand it beyond merely this argument about where we put troops and

don't put troops and make it both a generational argument and a change argument. and he's got a chance to do that. >> i'm so with you, howard on this generational thing. unless you're 65 and have a really good argument that your experience has added up to advanced knowledge, that you're smarter and wiser than the younger guy, you have to make the case now. being a little older is not going to win this election. being a little younger might. especially in the older candidates, hillary clinton included, can't make the case that they have learned something that the younger crowd doesn't know. tell what's you learned that we don't know. because when i hear rand paul who is much younger saying these wars are for -- i agree with him. thank you, sir. that's my word we have the republican former congressman who stood up to his party on climate change. this is "hardball," a place for politics. thank you for being my hero and my dad. military families are thankful for many things. the legacy of usaa auto insurance could be one of them. our world-class service earned usaa the top spot in

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life. that's really a hard pill to swallow, that the whole way that i've create mid life is wrong you're saying, that i shouldn't have this house in the suburb i shouldn't be driving this car. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was former republican congressman bob inglis. inglis is receiving the john f. kennedy profile in courage award coming next month. in 2004 at the urging of his children and scientists inglis reversed hi long held position that climate change wasn't real. he ultimately proposed a carbon tax in the u.s. congress. in 2010, his republican primary opponent, trey gowdy attacked on the climate and lost the seat he held for 12 years. in announcing the award, the john f. kennedy library foundation noted that inglis, quote, displayed the courage to keep an open mind and uphold his responsibilities as a leader and citizen at the expense of his own political career. joining me right now is the man

himself from washington on this earth day. former u.s. congressman bob inglis. congressman, thank you for joining us. do you think it's -- what is it? it is about being troglodytes? what makes people see what they don't want to see about science and climate change? >> well, it really is sort of an indication we've got to change, you know. and change is hard. unless you're in control of the change. and that's really what we've got to prove to conservatives is that there is a solution that fits with their values that they can control and that therefore works for them. and that's been hard so far, but i think we're getting there. and making progress on this front. >> i have -- i'm not a scientist, of course. but i have to tell you, i've never seen wackier weather in my life than just the last six months. it's not that it's gotten hotter and obviously. so it's not seasonal like it used to be. is that evidence to you of climate change, or is that just weather?

>> well, i think we're all experiencing climate change. you know and experience is an effective teacher. it's sometimes a very harsh teacher. so we will be taught about climate change. and it's just that sometimes we want to discount the information because we don't want it to be so. it would be a lot more convenient if it weren't. so but on the other hand, what we need to sell, and really convince people of is this idea that really good things can come out of addressing climate change that we can create more energy more mobility more freedom around the world. and it really can be yes, a danger, but also an opportunity. >> well, let's look at this. all four republican gubernatorial candidates in kentucky actually deny that climate change is caused by men. here is a former kentucky supreme court justice in a televised debate this week. let's listen to the judge. >> we've had five ice ages. scientists all agree, five ice ages, complete ice ages and five meltdowns and we didn't

even get here until the tail end of the last one. we didn't even have fire then. so how did we cause it? >> how did we cause it? talk about -- it's almost like a debate against nature. this like the monkey trial again, the scopes trial? is this a battle against science? >> to some extent. there is a sense among people of faith that perhaps this is an attack on faith. of course, i don't see it that way. i see it that the science affirm miss faith. you know the apostle paul in romans i said what may be known about god is clear from the creation itself. i don't think it has to be an attack on faith. in fact, kit be a called to stewardship. >> yes. >> for preserving this part of eden that is left. >> you know, every time you go camping as a kid and as a grownup, you're told leave the site better than you found it. i think we should say that about our planet too. thank you, bob inglis. congratulations again from the wonderful award from the john f. kennedy foundation. up next hillary clinton is caught in the middle, not just on trade, but on a bunch of

issues. she is trying to strike the right balance between the progressive wing in her party and the mainstream. but doesn't she need to go center left for a big win next november? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. at your ford dealer... that's where! our expert trained technicians... state of the art technology and warranty parts keep your vehicle running right. it's no wonder we sold more than 3.5 million tires last year and durning the big tire event get a $120 mail in rebate on 4 select tires. ♪ kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money. kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions

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i'm milissa rehberger. here is what is happening. the senate will take up loretta lynch's confirmation vote tomorrow. she was nominated to be attorney general back in november. the man who shot president reagan back in 1981 is seeking full-time release with conditions from a washington mental hospital. john hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity in that shooting. and the obstruction of justice conviction of baseball player barry bonds has been thrown out. in 2011, bonds was sentenced to 30 days home confinement probation and community service in that case. back to "hardball."

we've pulled together 11 countries to come up with a high standard enforceable trade provision that has unprecedented labor standards unprecedented environmental standards, fixes a lot of the problems that you had in things like nafta and ultimately, i would not be putting this forward if i was not absolutely certain that this was going to be good for american workers. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was of course president obama defending the proposed transpacific partnership or tpp trade bill in my interview with him yesterday. now as democratic front-runner hillary clinton decides whether to support the deal or not, she is caught in the middle of a divided party. on one side, there is a democratic president and the pro trade legacy of her husband. and on the other side there are the labor unions and many progressives. she is certain she has yet to clearly position herself on either side, of course. but she did speak about the deal

in new hampshire yesterday. >> any trade deal has to produce jobs and raise wages and increase prosperity and protect our security. and we have to do our part in making sure we have the capabilities and the skills to be competitive. we have to get back to a much more focused effort in my opinion, to try to produce those capacities here at home. so that we can be competitive in a global economy. >> it does appear that senator clinton is more wary of a deal now than she was in 2011 when she was serving as secretary of state. here is what she said in support of the tpp bill back then. >> there is new momentum in our trade agenda with the recent passage of the u.s.-korea free trade agreement and our ongoing work on a minding high quality transpacific partnership, the so-called tpp. the tpp will bring together economies from across the pacific, developed and developing alike into a single 21st century trading community.

>> i'm joined right now by the roundtable msnbc's joy reid, editor and chief. michelle goldberg of the nation. i'm treating joy with the joy of explaining what hillary clinton just said. she for it or against it? >> i think everything we know about hillary clinton is she is a free trader, she is a globalist. that is who she is. >> are you? >> myself personally? >> yeah. >> you know what? i'm sort of two minds. >> the most educated people i've been taught from the time we were in grade school, putting up big, closing the door doesn't work. which that setup i think the concept sounds so good on paper. but i definitely am sympathetic to the motion that nafta did hurt american workers in sense that since american wages are so much higher, we have to bring up the wages of the world around the world outside the u.s. the only places for american wages to go in that equation is

down. i definitely think there was a downside to nafta. so i'm really sympathetic with that argument. at the same time, the world is the world. you can't close yourself off from it. the united states has to compete or not survive. i am very torn on the notion of free trade. i think hillary is not. i think she is for it. politically, her whole campaign that she is running right is i am run tock the champion of the average american worker. so she can't come out and fully embrace it. she's got to say i've got caveats and things i'm going to need to see first. >> we're not talking about free trade as a concept. we're talking about a specific agreement with specific problems. even the free traders, libertarians, the cato institute have come out against this thing because of some of the very specific advantages it gives to corporations over the national sovereignty of the united states. >> they're sovereignty people. >> but there are a whole host of problems that you can have with this agreement that don't necessarily mean you're against free trade in principle. it's like when obama said i'm not against all war i'm against

dumb wars, right? you don't have to be against all free tried agreements to be against free trade agreements that significantly weaken environmental protection or all sorts of other regulations. >> joe? >> well, i mean i think what joy said is true. we do have to engage with the world. and as one of the authors of pivot to asia early in the administration, she has some skin in the game with the deal with, you know the specific deal. the question that she is going to confront is this a good deal, as michelle said. or is there something about it that she needs to push back on in order to represent the labor constituent circumstances which is a big part of the democratic base. and that i think is why she was talking about currency manipulation, for instance. which is a big issue for the unions. what does china do about its currency, and is that going to be addressed in this agreement? >> in 2012 secretary clinton also said that tpp sets the gold standard on trade agreements. now republican candidate jeb bush calling her out, saying

hillary clinton's tpp flip-flop is wrong. should it move forward. here is the statement he released today. this is jeb bush. last week, less than four days after she announce herd bid for the presidency she cooled her enthusiasm considerably. secretary clinton's campaign said the trade agreements have to pass fresh tests and even greater scrutiny. and among the issues are currency manipulation that the obama said were poison pills that would kill the negotiations. so much for the gold standard. jack lew the secretary of treasury has said if you put it in like this, we're not going to talk about currency manipulation. we all know what you did to deflate your economy and make your goods cheaper. it makes it tougher on tourists but a lot better for your manufacturers. we had sherrod brown, a classic ohio democrat. i actually like the guy and i think he would be great on the ticket with hillary. he takes the old position we have in western pennsylvania trade deals have been screwing the working man and woman year after year after year, going back to the kennedy round. we're not going to do it certainly back to nafta. if you listen to that argument all the way through, and most

people who are not protectionists, that would mean we would still be buying 1957 fords, or chevys, which are actually pretty good. but you'd be getting planned obsolescence. i don't can't put out a junker anymore. toyota has changed the standard. cars must last almost forever. and they do. and our cars are fords our chevys, our gm cars, our chryslers, they're really good cars today because of international competition. you can't tell a worker in ohio here is my speech, he can't buy a foreign car. they know if you can't buy a foreign car you, can't buy a good american car. >> nobody is saying you can't buy a foreign car. >> i've been through this. the labor unions in the '70s were trying to stop all trade. >> look at -- >> a big free trader -- >> protectionists. >> but it's not just protectionists who have raised real problems with this bill. >> i know that. should we listen to pure protectionists in this argument? >> how about listen to paul

klugman? go on. >> i would say the reasonable position is that you want the chinese to be able to buy more stuff. >> how do you do it? >> the currency issue is part of it. >> you can get them to do it through what? >> if their currency was worth more that. >> could buy more things. >> i know. how do you do that? >> it's part of the negotiation. you have to have something that china wants. >> a. >> they're not in the negotiation deal. >> yes, i understand that but it's part of a whole gestalt as we would say. how do you get other nations to consume more and consume more american products. >> and i think the average voter, if you talk about just the stateses you mentioned, ohio pennsylvania, michigan the average voters in the rust belt are not going to get that deep about it. they're going to say to themselves there's is this specter of what china has done in terms of flooding our country with cheap products, walmart's shelves are stocked with cheap goods. and detroit, flint michigan. when you think about it that way, that we have to bring back

american manufacturing is politically potent. tpp gets into some weeds that are less politically salient. currency manipulation is not going to be the field on which the campaign is going to be fought. >> by the way, i'm a -- my job to stir this thing up. none of this thing that shuts the door in the debate. the roundtable is staying with us. president obama's commitmentment to africa. he is out there doing it as of last tooibl night, i can tell you. this is "hardball," the place for politics. we are sharing a little bit of our soul. to life! and when we eat, we begin with our eyes. just as the beauty of the food entices you to try it, the beauty of the website should entice you to explore it. i am eric ripert and this is my squarespace.

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of almost a thousand migrants in the mediterranean after their boat capsized. what i got was a strong hint into his views on how the world and america's role in africa have continued. you know the area i know you care about is africa. and your feelings about watching those refugees, 950 people drowning, just trying to find a life. and also kenya, a country we all care about. very moderate country, proof h western, getting terrorized those college kids, who were the hope of their families, getting killed because they're christians. are you going to still go to kenya? >> i am going to still go to kenya. look, it's a heartbreaking situation. there's a lot of tumult and chaos around the world right now. and part of our goal as the world world's leading superpower is to work with partner countries to try to resolve conflicts, to be ruthless in going after terrorism, but we're not going to do that by ourselves and do

it just by deploying more marines in every country that has these problems. we've got to build up their capacity in these areas so that they're not recruiting centers and safe havens for terrorist activity. >> that really came through to me that he knows that we can't be a military state. but we have to be involved in the world. >> yeah, absolutely. and i think because barack obama lived overseas because he has international -- because his father was from kenya and he has that international perspective on the u.s., he knows the problem with the idea of always sending in the u.s. military to solve these problems the first week we're there we're heroes and everyone's so happy to see us. after a month -- >> mogadishu, look at what happened there. >> that's right, after a month, we are the enemy. and those groups would love to have us there. it gives them a focus outside of themselves and the governments have become too dependent on american power. but i am glad to hear he's going to go to kenya. i tell people the story that my father who was the democratic

public of congo was the first person to call me on the night that barack obama was elected in 2008 called me crying. >> what relationship was he to you? >> my father. >> wow. >> and africa writ large had a great deal of hope in barack obama. they see him as a son of africa although obviously he's an american, and i think he needs to have that moment in kenya, because i think the continent does need to spiritual uplift. but the governments need to be accountable to their own people. >> that's enough. sorry guys, she was too good. thank you. i didn't know you had that kind of history family history. joy reid, great to have you especially tonight. joe, we'll have you back, michelle goldberg says well. when we return, let me finish with this hot issue of trade, which is a real debate. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. available without a prescription for frequent heartburn. get complete protection. nexium level protectiontm.

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to get that right. and we take it very seriously. because we love them. and we know you love them too. people ship all kinds of things. but what if that thing is a few hundred thousand doses of flu vaccine. that need to be kept at 41 degrees. while being shipped to a country where it's 90 degrees. in the shade. sound hard? yeah. does that mean people in laos shouldn't get their vaccine? we didn't think so. from figuring it out to getting it done, we're here to help.

let me finish tonight with this trade issue. i think it's important that the democrats take a hard look at any trade deal for the impact it's likely to have on jobs and economic development in this country. it's important that the country and the party look at how the specific trade deal affects us overall. will it help us compete in the world? will it help us create jobs for the future? will it give the u.s. worker the best possible shot at these jobs. we all grew up hearing the calls against trade, we got before the great depression, calls that led to the tariffs, which many believed were a direct cause from the great depression. and we've heard calls arguing the advantages of trade expansion.

and yes, there are going to be trade-offs. that's why it's called a deal. the challenge of our leaders to decide if it all adds up to a net plus or a net minus. do most people generally believe we'd be better off if we cut off imports from japan and germany and korea in the auto industry. do we want to go back to the days of the u.s. monopoly on cars before they lasted before serious breakdowns. i believe, like everyone listening, that we have done better with our auto production because of the competition from foreign producers. that our customers -- our consumers have benefited from having a wide variety of choice from the best products in the world that's how i look at it. i look at the clothes you can buy today, the quality and variety and price, you know you're getting a lot better than you would have done without the foreign market place. all this should be up for debate. we should look for the culture, by the way as well as the economic impact of lost jobs, especially in the old neighborhoods where i came from. people matter most and it's up to the democrats in this hot debate to look out for them using all their knowledge, all their experience, and not just

let this become a battle to see who can betts shut down the other side's argument. let's hear the best thinking in this argument, and that means both sides of the argument. and we're going to give it to you here. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us all. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on all in. >> president obama goes on an earth day attack in the land of bush and rubio. >> you don't stick your head in the sand. >> reporter: tonight, why climate change is officially a 2016 wedge issue. plus, the latest from baltimore where the police union is giving its account of the death of freddie gray. >> i don't want it to turn into a lynch mob. >> plus, "top chef's" tom clickio. >> it starts to raise the awareness around this issue. >> and an incredible story about a